Stop Me Before I Vote Again

Man, I think it's easier for Qaddafi than almost any one of the official targets, other than Chavez. For starters, he's got that dinar gold all locked up and impervious to foreign takeover. Second, he's better than most when it comes to disbursements from the oil fund. Third, he stuck by the ANC and the anti-apartheid rank and file when the whole fucking world was looking askance in the name of gold, uranium and diamonds.

The Green Book may be gobbledygook, but it's not without its platitudinous virtues.

The domestic opponents are a who's who of American, French and British educated neoliberals. The rebels are monarchists, poisonous zealots or mercenary stooges.

Which, sadly, doesn't excuse his cozying up to the EU's deportation and concentration camp program, but no one's perfect.

His biggest geopolitical flaw was failing to learn the lesson of Saddam. The US will always use the UN and NATO to get its goodies once a local client runs out his stamp of approval. Q should have seen it coming.

Jean Bricmont has examined some of the pitfalls of the 'rather convenient position of "Neither, nor"' and also the inanity of the notion of "support" by Westerners for people on the wrong side of global tracks.

"Q should have seen it coming."

I'm tempted to say ROFLMFAO. Suffice to say that he didn't.

SMBIVA is depressing these days. Abandoning all principles, in the name of -- what -- making the left bigger?

Yoshie Furuhashi is a mere side-taker. I've been shocked MR has let her get away with it all. And I know MR people pretty well.

And, following this logic, SMBIVA was also pro-Saddam...

SMBIVA was certainly pro-Saddam in the same sense that it's pro-Qaddafi. Not quite as much as it's pro-Ahmadinejad, of course.

..."rancid reporting", "garbage", "ignorant rants", "utterly reactionary and stupid", "bullshit artist of the year", "crapola", "insane scribbler", "beyond the pale", "fleas", "they must be made to pay", "totally unrelibale [sic]", "rightwing scumbags"...

Ahhh, yeah. There's nothing I love more than pissed-off Liberals. Rightist howling is mere background noise to me these days; sputtering Liberal bitching is what I crave, especially when someone calls them out from the Left. I especially enjoyed the shrieking I heard when I told them why I supported Ralph Nader back in '00.

That's quite a fine collection of little-foot-stamping vitriol you've got up there, too. Hell, I half expected to find "big, fat doodyhead" in there somewhere. Personally, I always know I'm doing my job right when I get a bunch of pissy responses from Liberals calling me a rightist stooge or a Teabagger.

That used to happen to me at Gawker a lot; whenever I pointed out exactly what was in their beloved "historic" healthcare "reform" bill, they'd get all huffy and call me a Teabagger or some shit.

md
i don't follow you here ??
the SMBIVA line is steady
no imperial interventions total hands off
stay away uncle
and yes that went for saddam
and tibet and darfur

ooh paine but what is another great power has intervened on "the bad side "

let em

the target peoples have to deal with all this as they can

what if the peoples targeted have an organization reflective of those people's majority will
that wants to play off the contradictions
asmong great poers ??

let em
its their call

example
i have no formal complaint if the insurgents of eastern libya call for a no fly zone enforced by uncle's posse
but hey i'm against uncle rsponding to the call

its a nasty world ot there
and i read the last of the mohicans
peoples an be exterminated even
to the last brave

"Well, so be it. I don't have a problem with this. If US warplanes are required to bung Qaddafi out of Tripoli, then it follows -- since I don't want the warplanes sent -- that I'm in favor of leaving him in place. The logic seems flawless, and I plead guilty as charged.

I kind of agree with the anti-Xites, in one way; it's an either-or."

What if I just realize that I don't have a voice in the matter anyway, that the emperium will do as it pleases not matter what, and just call it day and head for the local bar?

DP, the thing about these "support" slogans and talk about "values"--as opposed to programs--is that they are designed to cut off thinking and induce mental paralysis. Heading for the local bar is a likely outcome of being exposed to these soundbites. "Support the Troops" is another meaningless slogan designed to shut up any malingerer talk about desiderata like the Constitution, International Law, etc. As for supporting one side or the other in the Libyan conflict, how are you going to express your support? Put on your tin hat and sign up with the Lincoln Brigade? Write 'em tax deductible checks? (I'd be careful with those as based on past experience they're likely to be declared terrorists some day, and flying would become even more unsettling for you).

dp

these interventions have a duration
if its brief like panama and grenada
no chance to do anyhting your right
but if it stretches out
like afy and iraqrathustra them we can mobilize raise a certain hell try dumping elected champions etc etc
to say we can't do anything now doesn't
mean we can't in good time do something
whatever that might be

of course one has the nuclear option
that in effect we can never effect state actions
one can narrate vietnam 1964 to 1975 that way

fine
push that button
render all protest useless expressivism
agonizing pure and simple
and go have a few stiff drinks
fuck have one for me

but there are times my friend when ....

Drunk Pundit sez on 04.17.11 @18:55:
What if I just realize that I don't have a voice in the matter anyway, that the emperium will do as it pleases not matter what, and just call it day and head for the local bar?

Y'know, I often find myself feeling that way, but then I remember the old saying about knowing and not acting -- or at least speaking -- and then I feel compelled to say something about it... especially considering that speaking up is pretty much my "job".

Still, in any case, the Bar Option is absolutely "on the table" (as we say here in DC).

sk
talk about

"cut off thinking and induce mental paralysis"

i think that is if i understand you here:

".. supporting one side or the other in the Libyan conflict, how are you going to express your support?"

you may have run yourself
into just such a box canyon
with this snide characterization
of support as mere value talk

are you suggesting there's nothing to discuss here ??
the empire will do what it will do ?
again i refer you to the above comment

this talk is a school for determining what we do if the intervention drags on
i tend to expect no such drag on
but certainly analogous circumstances have and will again occur where the scale and duration
allow citizen action to get beyond the academic debate stage

What if I just realize that I don't have a voice in the matter anyway

Hehe, not wanting to get involved in any Rote Fahne style debates on who is "objectively" pro-X and who is not, just keep in mind that the sentence uttered by Hinh around 1:30 in this trailer makes sense because he is from the society involved--and can speak the language. It does not apply to outsiders, who'd be better advised to keep a sharper eye on machinations of their own government.

sk
nice link
and of course i agree with your
by right of necessary involvement
altering allowable tactics
hence my
non crticism of the nato call in by the as yet
masked marvel rebels of benghazi

r2p
is the boss motive these days for
imperial armed intervention

btw i think CAH charges now generalize
quite effectively and reasonably
what hysterics once required

the right to trigger armed action
hardly can require a genecide call
as in the past
CAH is the full and final shapeless but highly shapeable blob
that can produce
by any rationalizations necessary
an intervention "license"
CAH can convert by any means necessary
into a beautiful
cosmo compatible motivation
for uncle's posse
to shoot its way
into anywhere
after all as general butler usmc
once said

"what in thunderation
qualifies as a crime against humanity..???
hell i think dixie land music
is a crime against humanity "

"One always has a voice. Using it may or may not affect events, of course. But one does what one can."

Oh I say some shit, you can count on that.

And if I can ever think of anything to be done, even if it's just some little thing, I do it.

Then I head to the bar...

one wonders about the comintern in this context

and i think after a sincere wrangle over its
history from glorious 1919 to its post babarossa liquidation
one finds in each national struggle
at some point or points
the role of this outfit
turns from
positive to negative

so maybe prole set ups need some provisional notion of non interference as well

by right of necessary involvement...

It isn't due to necessity per se; the full sentence is:

"Sooner or later, Mr. Fowler, one has to take sides, if one is to remain human."

It's curious how large a proportion of CAH ("Crimes Against Humanity") and WC ("War Crimes") tend to be carried out by dark-skinned men in places like Sri Lanka and Central African Republic, going by the docket backlog at the Hague.

... Questo misero modo
Tegnon l'anime triste di coloro
Che visser sanz' infamia e sanza lodo.
Mischiate son' a quel cattivo coro
Degl' angeli che non furon ribelli
Ne fur fedel' a Dio, ma per se fuoro.(*)

---

Now I know who you remind me of. You are just like the all so smart Harvard students who I used to try a subscription to the Militant newspaper 40 years ago. I always wondered whatever became of them.

Which, sadly, doesn't excuse his cozying up to the EU's deportation and concentration camp program, but no one's perfect.

---

You don't understand. Counterpunch lauds this move as ridding the country of the cancer of illegal immigrants. Don't forget that Qaddafi booted the Palestinians long ago with the kind of finality that would have made Avigdor Lieberman green with envy. But that's okay. The HDI stats for Libya puts it close to Romania. If you make sure that the life expectancy rate is on a par with Romania's, you are entitled to set up concentration camps for Sub-Saharan illegal immigrants.

lu lu
"... I used to try to sell a subscription to the Militant newspaper 40 years ago.."

impressed by a quote from
an italian catholic ...

oh these ex trots:

"...cattivo coro
Degl' angeli.."

Just out of curiosity, where is the evidence that Qaddafi is running "concentration camps" for illegal immigrants? Like a lot of the propaganda claiming massacres by Qaddafi's troops, I suspect this one will prove to be bullshit as well:

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/04/17/hypocrites-left-and-right/

There have been claims that what Qaddafi is doing is cracking down on the human trafficking industry, rather than letting the Invisible Hand deal with the matter as in Kosovo under NATO.

http://www.counterpunch.org/mountain03232011.html

Pretty interesting that, despite being such an inveterate monster in the eyes of the West, the UN and the same GCC countries now calling for Qaddafi's head per America's cue were on the verge of adopting a report praising Libya for its human rights record when all this broke out. Pretty fucking quick turnaround, that.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1314451&ct=9142923

I don't know what the truth is about Qaddafi, but color me skeptical of anything said about the man in the media. When I see Qaddafi riding around in an open SUV with no guards through the streets of Tripoli, letting local people hop on his vehicle within Swiss Army knife range of his jugular, it's kind of hard to buy the picture of a tyrant so terrified of his people he needs to cut them down in the streets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/apr/14/gaddafi-motorcade-tours-tripoli-video

"...but no one's perfect.

---

You don't understand..."

wet hen sarcasm
duels with itself

can't lose

Just out of curiosity, where is the evidence that Qaddafi is running "concentration camps" for illegal immigrants? Like a lot of the propaganda claiming massacres by Qaddafi's troops, I suspect this one will prove to be bullshit as well:

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/04/17/hypocrites-left-and-right/

There have been claims that what Qaddafi is doing is cracking down on the human trafficking industry, rather than letting the Invisible Hand deal with the matter as in Kosovo under NATO.

http://www.counterpunch.org/mountain03232011.html

Pretty interesting that, despite being such an inveterate monster in the eyes of the West, the UN and the same GCC countries now calling for Qaddafi's head per America's cue were on the verge of adopting a report praising Libya for its human rights record when all this broke out. Pretty fucking quick turnaround, that.

http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1314451&ct=9142923

I don't know what the truth is about Qaddafi, but color me skeptical of anything said about the man in the media. When I see Qaddafi riding around in an open SUV with no guards through the streets of Tripoli, letting local people hop on his vehicle within Swiss Army knife range of his jugular, it's kind of hard to buy the picture of a tyrant so terrified of his people he needs to cut them down in the streets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/apr/14/gaddafi-motorcade-tours-tripoli-video

Thus Louis P, in a vivid and rather touching vignette:

Now I know who you remind me of. You are just like the all so smart Harvard students who I used to try [sc. 'to sell'?] a subscription to the Militant newspaper 40 years ago.

Those days are long gone by for both of us -- two grizzled old survivors of the bracing sectarian logomachies of yesteryear. So I am all the more surprised that Louis, veteran logomachos that he is, would imagine that this kind of Bronx-cheering is going to sting much.

I used to tell the campus Militant hawkers I'd buy their paper when it got a sports page.

The way I read Drunk Pundit's comment (4/17, 6:55pm): Why even bother taking sides? Just hit the bar. In which case, and in this case, I agree.

This, as I understand it, is not the same as never protest.

And it's not the same as "pox on both..." I am just sitting this one out.

mjs

what's this
lachrymose indulgence ????

flea biten old cats and rats singing
together in harmony ??

fortunately comrade rat here
unlike the noble ole cat
has not lost
his flute up the ass marmish tea pot fury

then again
allah be praised
what would i have left to laff about
if this unlikely hot house perfection
didn't exist ??

this invention maybe of my own equatorial id

where would i be
if lu lu didn't scurry about
and every now and again
peer out at us from some virtual culvert

nose only in the light of day

eyes a beaded glint
from the shadows

wiggling his whiskers in transcendent scorn

OP, Louis is forbearing enough to let me remain on his list, though my contributions seem to annoy him, so I feel he's entitled to parliamentary language from me.

Speaking of Louis, he wrote in an earlier comment:

Counterpunch lauds this move as ridding the country of the cancer of illegal immigrants.

The human trafficking industry, one of the most evil, inhumane businesses on the planet, grew into a billion dollar a year industry in Benghazi. A large, viscous underworld mafia set down deep roots in Benghazi, employing thousands in various capacities and corrupting Libyan police and government officials. It has only been in the past year or so that the Libyan government, with help from Italy, has finally brought this cancer under control. With their livelihood destroyed and many of their leaders in prison, the human trafficking mafia have been at the forefront in funding and supporting the Libyan rebellion. Many of the human trafficking gangs and other lumpen elements in Benghazi are known for racist pogroms against African guest workers where over the past decade they regularly robbed and murdered Africans in Benghazi and its surrounding neighborhoods. Since the rebellion in Benghazi broke out several hundred Sudanese, Somali, Ethiopian and Eritrean guest workers have been robbed and murdered by racist rebel militias, a fact well hidden by the international media.

" I am just sitting this one out"
i tried that
but the empire's agit prop
pulled me back in

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/2011/03/quite_contrary.html

col q as horned fire demon
slaughtering women children and no doubt gays
and cross dressers
--imagine the hypocrisy of that !!
out of col el draghazi hizzseff--

the off key histrionics of it all
just tore my ass off

"The way I read Drunk Pundit's comment (4/17, 6:55pm): Why even bother taking sides? Just hit the bar. In which case, and in this case, I agree.

This, as I understand it, is not the same as never protest."

Chomskyzinn sees my point.

My apologies for side-tracking, but the selling of newspapers makes me purple with frustration. Always has. Always will and I have no intention of getting over it either. I have an enduring horror of it, and I am "objectively-pro" anyone who recalls attempting it with zero success.

I was actually quite good at selling various ill executed if not entirely ill conceived
red papers broad sheets tracts etc
to the residents of various boston
And later nyc upper west side projects
And neighborhoods

Err selling ?

I should say handing out and then asking for a donation
to some local
Front group with a timely and fetching
Handle ....

Of my own invention
Often
Existing only on paper but full of fierce intentions
to butch up some immediate enemy of the manhattan masses

Papers are global but all donations local

As I matured into the later 70's I evaded such street work

.

Needless to say I was in violation of line and discipline

But
my cell mates were with me and fearless leader far far away in ....brooklyn

Notice hardened junior cadre iggie rat ski there was in cam town selling subscriptions !!!

I while in bean town
Operated out of ...well cheek by jowl to
Hispanic jp

Selling desafio

Plp had yet to break with Mao

They no need no stinking subscriptions
But are quite generous about supporting local hi jinx
Once they recognize you in particular

The redu with the fuzzy face
He makes me laff