Stop Me Before I Vote Again

When you hear from David Horowitz I think it will be safe to assume it *is* the real Horowitz. Maybe you will trifecta and get Dershowitz and Pipes.

Really though, when you say AIPAC you are also saying Military-Industrial complex. The two are inseperably entwined - the latter being the bigger problem. It's also the case that america has been gutted and the only thing left to sell is military, fear and ignorance.

You could make the case that Mersheimer and Walt opened the door with their paper and that paper is really the opening salvo of "the realists". If the dems had such a wing it might be surprised where its allies are.

JSP,

It is obvious to anybody with half a brain that ANY american analysis--whether by the right or the left--bears any relevance to american reality only. When it comes to foreign policy, the fundamental american ignorance of anything not american is pathetic, and a product of the failed US education system which is responsible for it. This is true, for example, of good old Chomsky, who is brilliant with respect to US system, but a huge failure interpreting the middle east. You're the same when it comes to foreign policy.

I suggest you stop scapegoating AIPAC for what are abysmal policy failures due to the US having become a failed state as a logical consequence of its own rotten economic and political system, and to a gullible, ignorant and manipulable public that such a system produces.

Don't translate your frustration as a leftie that the US public lacks any class consciousness and permits upper class fascists to do whatever they want with it, into equating everybody that disagrees with you to the KKK, if you want to be taken seriously. This was shown already to be absurd by Billmon, don't look for other targets that are even more basurd. Stick to the US and u'll do fine.

http://www.dbdebunk.com/page/page/3433496.htm

Incidentally, are you aware of the similarity of your comments to that famous one by Ahmedinajad? Careful: the hatred one detects between your lines comes very close to justifying equating you with the KKK.

The anti-Semitism doesn't become you. No one rational believes that a country of 3 million located 10,000 miles away has much, if any, say over a country of 300 million. It simply doesn't make sense.

jr :

"when you say AIPAC you are also saying Military-Industrial complex. The two are inseparably entwined - the latter being the bigger problem"

absolutely and the greatest
of these are
100% wasp owned
amerikan
korporate gun makers

in fact the reason i pick aipac
is its "base" in
the hearts of real decent
liberal people

much like the donk face of orthrus himself
outfits like
aipac and the hellenic brotherhood
and the latvian
flag club
provide a cover for purely squalid
trans national
corporate operations
t'is a frightful symbiosity

much like
richard the lion hearted
a butcher
a faker
and a beast
but at least
real live crusader
of a guy
fronted for italian merchantile elites

fp writes:

"Stick to the US and u'll do fine."

thank heavens
at least for that

but as to my pretensions
at insight beyond that
perhaps i need
to be a bit clearer:

my target here
is a party
(the Democratic party)
not
a state
not the fed gov
of the US of A

now
as to that party
being PERHAPS
a "failed " party

GIVEN ITS MANDATE:
electoral success
i'd have to say no at least not as yet

in fact it seems as if
it may well be
on the edge of
falling back
into
some of the power
and perks
it lost 12 years ago

-------------------------
but to stick to your line
if the donkery
is to be rightly
called
a failure
in my estimation
its only in as much
as its a party
that effectively
fails to impliment
and of even represent
the interests
of its historical
working class base
at that its
a whale bone sized failure

and that failure
to further the interests
of one of its charter classes
indeed has a class aspect
itself

but ah
now we carry ourselves far from the holy land

so i'll only add
i 'm
not frustrated
by the course of events
thats a fools game

nor
do i think
class
"conciousness"
is at all "lacking"
among the most
of our huge job class

they simple
have no orgainization
no political party anymore

Then why dont u say that complex rather than AIPAC? That sounds reasonable and is American animal.

Mr. Jesus,

Aren't you a priest or something? And if so, you have the nerve to talk about realism?

Instead of just throwing "realism" around, why dont you address the evidence and logic in the paper?

I suggest you stick to Che Guevara.

JSP,

I can understand why you do not address the "holy land" issue (I am an atheist by the way)-- it's not as easy to dismiss.

Anybody who really understands how the US system operates, knows that any claim that AIPAC drives US policy is absurd. My article I linked to makes that pretty clear.

When there is no rganization and fight, then there is not enough class consciousness to make a difference.

But I will go one further and reiterate: the US educational system is a failure, but its destruction a smart move by the powers that be. It does not teach how to think independently and critically, but rather indoctrinates into corporate capitalism conformity from very young age (just like the so-called communists did with their children), and it's hard to see how significant class consciousness would emerge under these circumstances. Anybody who expects it to save us from theocracy and fascism is deluding himself.

The Democratic party is the wrong target. The proper target is the US economic, political and social system. The Dems are an integral part of it, just like the Repugs, the Kossics, the corporations, AIPAC, the whole shabang.

i've read blaze pascal
now twice
where's the beef
first i doubt the congress can be swayed by aipac
if even a few corporate lobbys kick in the after burners
trans nat influences can trump zionists any time
so seeing my point the way most prefer to
misses me by a mile

in fact the aipacers avoid show downs
they expose the outfits weakness
i recall one the infamous
humiliation
the reagan or begin vote
over selling
saudi war making
hi tech junk

but here's my point
i'm talking party here

and i suspect
if one looks
at that vote that time
the orthrian rules of play
kept the outcome close
and
allowed many donkery
soup hounds to vote
their "hearts "
in a losing
pro zionist cause

so here we go
its not congress its the party i want purged
in fact until the day when there's an anti interventionist majority in the congress
whatever influence the aipac may have will remain intact
only the repubs will have to do all the heavy lifting
and thats what i want
just like the racists switched in the 60's i'd like the savage zionists to switch too now

since i'd like a democratic party freed of all
cross border overseas interventionist
organized influences
(setting aside the core trans national corporate influence on the party core
which is the sine qua non of anti interventionist purgations )

one must attack those other broader pressure and influence groups
and i contend when it comes to the middle east
aipac and its ilk
are indeed a paramount influence
on the democratic party core
as the white citizens councils were on segregation

get my drift ????

it ain't complicated

outside these pre eminent corporate
tuggers and pushers
the ethnic meddlers need a spanking too

the ira brits out of ireland
fans the greek
turks out of cyprus fans

the various anti russian
trans caucasian fans
the taiwan ain't prc/china lobby

the lebanon
for christ lobby
blah blah blah

to have a party that can not be derailed
or even retarded
on the road
to non intervention
such groups must go go go

or we progs must split split split

I havent read the Mearsheimer/Walt paper, nor am I likely to. I am not as concerned with its merits as puzzled by its appearance - it is an exceedingly odd occurence.

I am intrigued by fp's analysis - that it is cover for the elites in *this* country for what appears ever more likely a multidimensional collapse.

The "realists" is a foreign policy wing in the "neoliberal juggernaut" in which Mearsheimer/Walt are ensconced. This wing includes Zbiegniew Brszinski, Gary Hart, George Soros, Brent Scowcroft among others probably including Bush I, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

An alternative to JP's analysis is that it is the front end of a coup de etat.

Thanks for that - I read so few blogs that it's uncomfortable when two of the handful I do read have a fight.

I havent read the Mearsheimer/Walt paper, nor am I likely to. I am not as concerned with its merits as puzzled by its appearance - it is an exceedingly odd occurence.

The paper's appearance is... maybe "odd" isn't quite the right word, but it's certainly significant. My own suspicion, for what it's worth, is that there are elite elements (who are they? I dunno) who would like to take The Lobby down a peg or two. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, but I still like seeing my enemy taken down a peg or two.

Rowan, you got most of it.

As to JSP, it's hard to see how incoherent he is. If that's how "real progs" express themselves, our problem is even worse than I thought. No wonder fascists are winning.

A real prog who thinks the Dems are the root of the problem is not just a contradiction in terms, but limited intellect too.

Nonny,

I don't agree with everything MJS and JSP post, but I find it difficult to believe that "real progs" can vote Democratic after Madelaine Albright's claim that a half million dead Iraqi children were worth it.

So your version of intelligent non-contradictory "progs" involves supporting a million dead Iraqi children being okay because it wasn't on TV. Killing without a war - now that's progress any progressive can get behind!

whoops, I was responding to
anonymous, not rowan.

I have an idea about how the democrats are at the root of the problem.

Our economic system is called neoliberalism or the Washington Consensus but which is really the latest iteration of predator capitalism but on a global scale. It is a bipartisan effort. Both parties are dedicated to this notion developed after the end of the cold war of American elite’s domination the world.

Whether it is democrats through economic imperialism or republicans through military imperialism, both are expressions of American elites out of control to the complete detriment of the working class not just in the world but within our own borders.

NAFTA was the beginning and has been a template for much of what has followed. Bush I started it and Clinton finished it. It fundamentally changed the capital/labor equilibrium and 100 years of social and “labor” progress has been destroyed or is being destroyed.

It is free movement and protection for goods and money but no protection for workers or environment. No concern or benefit for ordinary people whatsoever, the people at the top benefit and everyone else pays.

Clinton sold out the democratic constituency. The people who lost were the unionized industrial sector and environmentalists. The party went down in the next ('94) election and has never recovered. The objectives of the Democratic Party are not working class but rather the class system that has developed with globalization. The democrats and republicans are working for the same people. Nothing proves that better than GWOT

What I am trying to say is that a real “prog” who doesn’t think the dems are the root of the problem is a dem who has either secured a paycheck in the realm or has been put to sleep by the MSM. I suggest you ask for your pay in Euros and sleep lightly.

Why are extreme lefties so diarrhetic in their comments, and so incoherent?

Lack of succinctness indicates poor quality of mind and one's liking to hear himself talk.

The Dems are a consequence of the real problems, not the cause. Anybody who does not understand that is not smart enough to matter to a progressive cause.

Anonymous,

By no means did I even imply to vote Dems. In fact, anybody who confuses voting with democracy cannot possibly be a prog either. And, furthermore, it's that precise confusion that allows the public to believe the propaganda that they live in a democracy. It's an absurd illusion that those who own the country love. Not to even mention the voting process has now been FUBAR.

What I meant was that any belief that "fighting" the Dems will solve any problem is a delusion, because they are not the cause, but the consequence. They are a creature of the US system and the only way to solve the problem is to change the system, not to vote, be it for the Repugs or the Dems.
Anybody who does not realize that is not a prog.

Aside: there is no difference between extremes, the right -- corporate capitalism fascism--or the left -- old style communism. The left-right is not a continuum, but a circle, where the extremes meet. See my article
http://www.dbdebunk.com/page/page/1282191.htm
(disregard the fact that it starts from a tech perspective).

[snort] If you want short 'n snappy, I hear that FOX news has a humdinger of a message board.

I personally didn't have any trouble following either Reyes or JSP, and I've never claimed to be a brilliant intellect. If something doesn't quite make sense, usually a re-read or two does the trick. Honestly, trying to pay attention doesn't make your eyebrows fall off.

This isn't a political campaign, Anon. It's a site for analysis. Explain to me, in as many or as few words as you like, why anyone here is required to be pithy and orthodox to a degree that will entertain you ? And while you're at it, explain why I should care whether I or anyone else here needs to worry about convincing you that the DP is responsible for our woes, or a helpless victim of The Way Things Are ? If you don't believe, you don't believe. What you do with your beliefs is your own affair.

In any case, I'd rather read a half-dozen meaty, challenging posts in a space like this than wallow through 600 Kos/Atrios tidbits every couple of hours, all of which are simple variations of the "all your pwog votes am belong to us" theme. Blecch. You can keep 'em.

I would like to apologize for losing my temper at j.S. Paine. It's clear to me now that he/she is suffering from some sort of personality disorder, perhaps schizophrenia. It is neither appropriate nor compassionate to hold such people responsible for the bizarre things they say. I should have realized his earlier. Again, my apologies.

senior pascal

you are a rare bird but of a species i quite delight in
the person
self aware
and
burdened
by the oddity
of vastly superior
set of powers and abilities

our amerikan culture
has tried to produce
reconstructions
of you byronic rogues
since at least ea poe

at the pop level of course
we have the secreted
space alien
caught among us dopey americanos
the range from benign to ...otherwise

includes
of course
that locus classicus

superman

but there's also
count dracula

a comic varient
might be
humbert humbert another

but we "know "you and some of us even love you
to the best of our plebian abilities

and yet you remain
largely isolated
somewhere in your redoubt of haute culture
or hi tech
glowering or grinning out at us ever too mortal "fools"

good luck
my dear and maybe
lonesome wizard

btw
your soviet review was
fun indeed one needn't be believed if one is effectively feared
you produce your official fairy tales
as much as anything else
to jam the channels of
mass communication

I guess that's your notion of serious discussion of issues. Can't say I am surprised.

Isolation is better than the options available for avoiding it. If there is no knowledge and reason available, isolation is the only way to go. At least it's not denial or delusion.

Xeno,

I am not surprised.

Lots of people understand incoherence. Another product of the educational system both ways.

My humblest pardon to you, Anon. I may not be edjamacated enough for you, but it seems to me that if it's understandable, even to those not on your personal tea-dance list of Olympic-league intellects, it ain't incoherent.

Maybe the whole trouble is with you.

Perhaps you'd like to join Billmon/pseudo-Billmon in making some mental illness jokes now. I'm told that those always play well to the folks back home...

good luck pascal
good luck
may your discourse craving be answered by minds as deep as the azure sea
but for now
i must return to my trash can
and evict an interlopin'
crawdad
name a smifffff